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Proper weight, good diet and a very happy life. No other symptoms of any kind. Found two hermatogists in my town that seem to be excellent on "Best Doctors Lists" I will get an opinion from them both. The question I have is does anyone know how quickly liver damage can develop from an iron overload. It is rapid or slowly developing. I looked at my last blood test 5 years ago and my Ferritum was only I am about to go on an extended vacation for a month does delaying treatment of blood letting add additional risks?
I will add any information I can to assist others as things progress. I agree you must take charge of your own situaiton, learn as much as you can, find a specialist and if you do not like the treatment change doctors. Sun, September 25, 1: My son is now ten and gets checked once a year. When he is eighteen I;m going to make sure he is tested often. He has the single CY like I have. However, I don't want him to suffer like I did.
Remember, we all need to see our doctors frequently and pass the word about HH. Mon, September 26, 7: Joe, Thanks for the advise regarding my 18 year old son We have an appointment with a Gastroenterologist coming up in 2 weeks.
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Do not want to do phlebotomies till all tests are back, as they say some secondary causes can elevate Ferritin but not actual Iron?
Dr is stating that he may indeed have Hereditary Hemochromatosis, but since so young, prob also has a secondary cause such as a viral infection or autoimmune disease, otherwise he would not have such high Ferritin at such a young age.
I am so glad that the high levels were found "accidently" and hope he does not have too much liver damage yet - Dr's have already said since it is enlarged, there is some damage This is so very frustrating. I wish it were me instead of my son. I hate that he has liver damage at such a young age. Of course, if he does have HH, my husband, daughter, and I will all have to get checked as well as our siblings. I am so glad this site is here.
I have learned so much! Thu, September 29, 7: My 27 yr old daughter has been suffering with extreme fatigue, severe knee pain, sporadic hip pain and regularly looks 'wiped out'.
She is a certified personal trainer and has been health and diet conscious, if not fanatic, for several years now. She went back to the dr last week due to fatigue and he ordered blood tests. Her iron serum ishemoglobin I don't see anything on the test results that look like ferritin results,but maybe we do not know what we are looking at? We haven't talked to the dr yet and am wondering if the iron serum is seriously high and does elevated iron go hand-in-hand with her other high test results?
Any sharing of information and experiences will be greatly appreciated. Sun, October 2, 9: My husband was diagnosed with hemochromatosis about 10 years ago and then diabetes from the results of the iron damage. At times he is frustrated with the care he receives from physicians.
Unfortunately, neither he nor I believe he is seeing the right doctor. There is something about having to explain what hemochromatosis is when calling the doctor's office that makes you wonder. My husband become irrated with his doctor and has not been during the last six months. I know he probably is in desparate need of having a phlebotomy done as his ferratin is normally high.
We are currently searching for a new doctor. I am not looking for a doctor recommendation, but what types of questions can we ask future doctors to make sure we are getting a doctor that knows hemochromatosis? Does anyone know of a website that list doctors that treat this disease that we would be able to interview before making our next selection?
Unfortunately, we are located in a small town in the Midwest. But several big cities are available within a hour drive for us. Tue, October 4, 2: Natasha, I also live in the midwest and had bad luck with the first specialist I saw. My primary had suggested him. When I saw him, he said there was no diet, and I should wait a year, he could do a liver biopsy then, he didn't even look at my saturation level.
He obviously wasn't knowledgeable on current practices. I am in the St. Louis area if I can help. Sorry I didn't have the answers you were looking for. Tue, October 4, 8: Natasha, Welcome to the world of HH. My suggestion is to look for a hematologist or a gastroentriolgist, either one should be knowledgeable in HH.
Here are a few questions I asked when I was looking for a new hematologist. Plus questions I ask all my doctors. Do you know what hemochromatosis is? Do you you keep up on new developments on HH? How many HH patients do the currently treat?
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What are the guidelines they use to treat HH? What blood tests do they order to check for phlebotomy? Can I get copies of all test results? For all other doctors my very first question is: Have they ever heard of hemochromatosis? I ask if they mind working with my HH doctor?
Ask what kind of response time they have on phone calls? Fri, October 14, It has now gotten that when I walk, stand, lay down or sit on hard a surface, I get horrible pain in my hips and feet. Thanks for letting me vent Cheryl Fri, October 14, 1: I'm 19, and already have liver damage from my hemochromatosis, i was wondering if there was anyone else out there my age and has problems with this dieases. I started having phlebotomies once every two weeks, then my iron levels got better I was diagnosed 10 years ago with HH and have had phlebotomies ever since, at first weekly, but in recent years only once every 6 months.
My ferritin level has been declining consistently from the original level of nearly But I recently began having symptoms of weakness, restless legs, and poor memory. These began following a phlebotomy which resulted in a ferretin level of just 9. And while the blood was being tested, another phlebotomy was done. So the level wenrt even lower.
I learned from the nurse that the previous levels were 23 and So I am now at the anemic level. I have expressed my concern to my hematologist regarding symptoms, but he is unresponsive.
I have not been given advice on raising my level or an explanation of why my levels were allowed to go so low. So I am very confused. I don't know if my symptoms are due to iron deficiency. And I don't know how long it will take to return to the low norm. I have only been told they won't do a phlebotomy at the next 6 month interval.
I am posting this message to find out if others have gone from iron overload to anemia. Do doctors normally continue to reduce the ferretin level, even when it is below the low norm? Mon, October 17, 5: Does anyone knoe if high iron levels can lead to stroke. I have been diagnosed and have had a stroke 5 years ago.
My gene mutation wasn't discovered till well after this. Irish heretage, am now 55, continuing with venesections 3monthly to maintain low levels. Tue, October 25, 4: Tess, I am learning that with HH anything is possible!
Good question to ask your doctor.
Do they check how well your blood clots? What were your levels when you were diagnosed? Wed, October 26, 2: I wll say for the past two years I have had major joint pain that after many test could not be explained and I have had fatigue. Thu, October 27, Hello I am 41 years old and have Hemochromatosis. Over the last 14 months I have had 3 miscarriages.
Does anyone know if the Hemochromatosis can have any cause with this. However, offending elements often appear; sometimes his realism verges on a brutal plainness.
He is also by no means free from literary affectation; indeed by his choice of expressions, his repetitions and unnatural arrangement of words, he is almost always striving for effect. In his day the tradition of literary workmanship was quite dead but it would seem as if its ghost tortured Gregory.
On the whole his literary style is uncouth, awkward, and full of rude surprises. At times we have the conventionalized jargon of the church, in which Gregory was proficient and which was always in the back of his mind ready to issue forth when other inspiration failed. At the opposite extreme from this is the easy, clear narrative in which the popular tales, both Frankish and Roman, are often recited.
It is believed that in some of these we have a version of epic recitals of Frankish adventures. Then there are the passages, like the baptism of Clovis [note: In the light of these conclusions, objectively reached, [note: In these confessions there are two leading notions: The inference is always therefore that Gregory writes in the language of the day.
This, however, cannot be so. A language spoken by the people would have something organic about it, and it would not defy as Gregory's does the efforts of scholars to find its usages. It would be simpler than the literary language and probably as uniform in its constructions. We must decide then that Gregory's self-analysis is a mistaken one, correct in the first part but not in the second. He knew he could not write the literary language but in spite of this he made the attempt, and the result is what we have, a sort of hybrid, halfway between the popular speech and the formally correct literary language.
In the Epilogue of the History of the Franks written inthe year of Gregory's death, he gives us a list of his works: In the Arndt and Brusch edition in the Monumenta Germania Historica we have all these titles included.
The commentary on the Psalms however is in a fragmentary condition, and the Lives of the Fathers appears as one of eight books of Miracles. The book on Church Services is there entitled Account of the Movements of the Stars as they ought to be observed in performing the Services. It is really a brief astronomical treatise the purpose of which was in the absence of clocks to guide the church services at night.
In the former sphere the overshadowing interest was the miraculous. We have eight books devoted to miracles and it may be said that as a churchman Gregory never got very far away from them. It is idle to discuss the question whether he believed in them or not. It is more to the point to attempt to appreciate the part they played in the thought and life of the time. They were considered as the most significant of phenomena.
They seemed a guarantee that the relations were right between the supernatural powers on the one hand and on the other the men who possessed the "sanctity" to work miracles and those who had the faith or merit to be cured or rescued by them. Gregory's eight books of Miracles were thus a register of the chief interest of his day, with an eye of course to its promotion, and it is much more remarkable that he wrote a History of the Franks than that he compiled this usually wearisome array of impossibilities.
A brief glance at the practical situation that lay back of the four books which Gregory devotes to the miracles wrought by St.
Martin will be enlightening. The cult of St. Martin was a great organized enterprise at the head of which Gregory was placed. In the sixth century St. Martin's tomb was a center toward. The cures wrought there did much " to strengthen the faith. Martin's miracles were written. Gregory is here a promoter and advertiser. To get at the practical side of the situation we have only to remember that St. Martin's tomb was the chief place of healing among the shrines of Gaul, and that the shrines of the sixth century stood for the physicians, hospitals, drugs, patent medicines, and other healing enterprises of the twentieth.
The History of the Franks is Gregory's chief work. It was written in three parts. Then follow the appearance of the Franks on the scene of history, their conversion, the conquest of Gaul under Clovis, and the detailed history of the Frankish kings down to the death of Sigibert in At this date Gregory had been bishop of Tours two years.
The second part comprises books V and VI and closes with Chilperic's death in During these years Chilperic held Tours and the relations between him and Gregory were as a rule unfriendly. The most eloquent passage in the History of the Franks is the closing chapter of book VI, in which Chilperic's character is unsympathetical1y summed up.
It comes down to the year and the epilogue was written inthe year of Gregory's death. The earlier part of the work does not stand as it was first written; Gregory revised it and added a number of chapters. It will be noticed that from the middle of the third book on, Gregory was writing of events within his own lifetime, and in the last six books, which are of especial value, of those that took place after he became bishop.
For the earlier part of the work he depended on various chronicles, histories and local annals, and also on oral tradition. The list given by Manitius is as follows: Geschichte der Lateinischen Litteratur. His frequent journeys and wide acquaintance, his leadership among the bishops, and his personal relations with four kings, Sigibert, Chilperic, Gunthram,and Childebert and also with most of the leading Franks, gave him unsurpassed opportunities for learning what was going on.
Perhaps his most realistic notions of the working of Frankish society were obtained in dealing with the political refugees who sought- refuge in St. Though these people must have always been interesting to talk with, they were the cause of some of Gregory's most harrowing and at the same time informing experiences.
This varied contact with the world about him made Gregory what every reader feels him to be, a vivid and faithful delineator of his time. The History of the Franks must not be looked upon as a secular history. The old title, Ecclesiastical History of the Franks, is a better one descriptively.
Gregory does not take a tone of loyalty to the Frankish kings, much less of inferiority. His attitude toward them is cold unless they are zealous supporters of the church, and he speaks with the utmost disgust of their civil wars, which seemed to him absolute madness in view of the greater war between the good and evil supernatural powers. No doubt the words he quotes from Paulinus expressed his own feelings: At first sight, perhaps, we seem to have incongruous elements which from the modern viewpoint we cannot bring into harmony with one another.
Credulity and hardheaded judgment appear side by side. How could he find it necessary to preface his history, as no other historian has done, with an exact statement of his creed? And how could he relate Clovis's atrocities and then go on to say, "Every day God kept laying his enemies low before him and enlarging his kingdom because he walked with right heart before him and did what was pleasing in his eyes"? These apparently glaring incongruities must have some explanation.
The reason why they have usually passed as incongruities is perhaps that it is difficult for us to take an unprejudiced view of religious and moral phenomena that are in the direct line of our cultural descent. It is really a primitive society with a primitive interpretation of life and the universe with which we have to deal.
I,ook at the conception of religion held by Gregory. It seems most explicable, not by the creed he thrusts at us or by any traditional elements interpreted in a traditional sense, but by the living attitude toward the supernatural which he held. Two words are always recurring in his writings; sanctus and virtus, [note: Nunc autem cognovi quod magna est virtus eius beati Martini. Nam ingrediente me atrium domus. Vidi virum senem exhibentem arborem in manu sua, quae mox extensis ramis omne atrium texit.
Ex ea emm unus me adtigit ramus, de cuius ictu turbatus corrui. These words have in themselves no ethical meaning and no humane implications whatever. In a practical way the second word is the more important. It describes the uncanny, mysterious power emanating from the supernatural and affecting the natural.
The manifestation of this power may be thought of as a contact between the natural and the supernatural in which the former, being an inferior reality, of course yielded.
These points of contact and yielding are the miracles we continually hear of. The quality of sacredness and the mystic potency belong to spirits, in varying degrees to the faithful, and to inanimate objects.
They are possessed by spirits, acquired by the faithful, and transmitted to objects. There was also a false mystic potency.
It emanated from spirits who were conceived of as alien and hostile, and, while it was not strong as the true "virtue," natural phenomena yielded before it and it had its own miracles, which however were always deceitful and malignant in purpose. This "virtue" is associated with the devil, demons, soothsayers, magicians, pagans and pagan gods, and heretics, and through them is continually engaged in aggressive warfare on the true " virtue. Humility of mind was insisted on as an always necessary element.
Fasting was part of the prescribed method. The strength of the motive behind asceticism may be judged from the practice of immuring, [note: For an objective account of immuring as the climax of religious practice see Vol II, chap.
The following is his account of an immured monk who was brought out from his cell after a long time. His eyes had lost their color, were quite bright and blind. His hair hung round his head in uncombed matted locks and was pure white. His body was covered only by a rag for time had eaten away his clothing and he had received no new garments. He had a thin unkempt beard, and had never washed himself all the time or cut his nails.
In this the ascetic was shut in a cell and the door walled up and only a narrow opening left to hand in a scanty supply of food. Here he was to remain until he died. Such men were regarded as having the true "virtue" in the highest degree. In reality their life must have made them distinctly inferior in all the ordinary virtues of a natural existence. Of course in theory the main object of the mystic was to assimilate himself to the supernatural and not expressly to work miracles.
Still to society in general the miracles were the important thing. In the first place they served the immediate purpose for which a miracle might be needed, healing the sick or driving out a demon or something of the sort; in the second place they encouraged society by evidencing the fact that things in general were right and that their spiritual leaders had the right "medicine.
The miracle played an integral part in the life-theory of the time. It was the proof of religion and it did not need to be proved itself. Furthermore many miracles were real; for example, the cessation of a pain or natural recovery from a sickness would be regarded as a miracle.
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Some mention should be made of the transmissibility of the mystic potency. The case of St. Martin is a good example. During his lifetime he acquired this power in a large degree.
This was because of the sanctity and mystic "virtue" inherent in it. It was carried to Tours and buried there and proved the greatest asset of the city. The mystic potency resided in the tomb and the area about it, and was transmitted to the dust accumulated on it, the wine and oil placed on it for the purpose, and was carried in these portable forms to all parts of Gaul.
Gregory himself, for example, carried relics of St. Martin on his journeys and records that they kept his boat from sinking in the river Rhine. The system of superstition just outlined is the greater and more real part of Gregory's religion.
There was the right mystery and the wrong mystery; and both were of a low order; men had to deal with capricious saints and malignant demons. It was a real, live, local religion comparable with that of savages. By the side of this and intertwined with it the elements of traditional Christianity in a more or less formalized and ritualized shape were retained. Here the great stress was laid on the creed, not, however, that it amounted to anything in Gregory's mind as a creed.
He was no theologian. His acceptance of it and insistence on it was ritualistic. However, although he accepted it as he tells us with pura credulitas, [note: Pref] that is, without a critical thought, it was not mere formality. He felt, no doubt, that it was a sort of mystic formula, especially the Trinitarian part of it,-for putting men into the right relation with the supernatural. If they believed in the creed they had the right "medicine"; if they did not, they had not.
This system of superstition was not calculated to nourish delicate moral sensibilities. Life had gone too far back to the primitive word applied to the adept in this religion was sanctus and it indicated not moral excellence at all but a purely mystic quality. The "virtue" which this person possessed was mystic potency, which was not moral but a supernatural force.
The orthodox of course called the saint good, but this was merely because they were on the same side, just as Cicero for example six centuries before called members of his political party the boni. Gregory's moral praise or blame is distributed in the same way.
When he praises a man we must look for the service done by this man to the church, and when he blames one we must look in like manner for the opposite. His portrait of Clovis throws no false light back on Gregory.
Clovis was a champion and favorite of the right supernatural powers in their fight with the wrong ones, and any occasional atrocities he committed in the struggle were not only pardonable but praiseworthy. Secular activities and the state of mind just indicated could not coexist in the same society.
We have noticed already how education was desecularized. It is of interest to note also what had happened to the secular professions of medicine and law. The profession of medicine had almost completely disappeared. It is true indeed that we hear of a few physicians. For example when Austrechild, king Gunthram's wife, was dying, she accused her two physicians of having given her "potions" that were proving fatal, and asked the king to take an oath to have them executed.
He did so and kept his word and Gregory remarks with what seems excessive moderation, " Many wise men think that this was not done without sin. He soon decided that "secular means could not help the perishing," and sent for some dust from St. Martin's tomb which he put in water and drank, and was soon cured.